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tomgarven wrote on Mar 1, 2010 9:01 PM:

" bobo wrote on Mar 1 [in part] " Do they still have that diagram in Kindergarten or first grade that shows the water cycle?

Tom G. responds. I sure hope they still have it because it would be a wonderful thing to take to some meeting where an environmentalist is complaining about how much water a solar power plant uses. I mean after all; the only thing a solar power plant does is change the state of the water from a liquid state to a vapor state. We didn't use it up like gasoline yet I hear people say that all the time – we use too much water. We don't use it; but we do change its state and you are right – somewhere it comes back to earth in the form of rain.

Same for evaporative coolers – liquid water in – cooled water vapor out. Did we use the water? Well according to our water meters we did – but did we really?

On to your next post.

I guess I could start out being sarcastic but that would not get anything accomplished would it? As a part time job I sell solar photovoltaic electric systems. Most of our customers pay a zero electric bill and the solar electric systems run their 3-5 ton AC units quite nicely during the daylight hours. In fact most of the time the solar electric systems produce an excess of electricity during the day which is feed back to UniSource which is then used at night. I am quite sure you know this is called a grid-tied solar PV system. I am quite happy to say that many, many homeowners in Havasu are installing solar electric systems on their homes. They can see the hand writing on the wall and know electric rate are going to increase significantly in the next few years.

So the whole discussion of SEER this or roof mounted vs ground mounted is really sort of meaningless. Before I go on I will agree that almost every evaporative cooler will use less electricity than a regular 240 AC unit of equivalent capacity. For example, my 3 ½ ton units draws 21 amps at 240 volts and uses 3.515 kW per hour. At our current electric rate [including taxes] this figures out to be about .38 cents per hour. On a good hot day in the summer it will run about 7-11 hours. At 9 hours that's about $3.48 per day or $104.40/ month

My cooler on the other hand gets used in May and most of June. When July, August and September roll around so does the monsoon season and I shut down the cooler. When Sept comes along assume the monsoon is over it gets used for another month or two. So during my 'cooler running period' I use 1kW/hour [1 hp cooler motor] and it runs 12 hours a day so that's 12 kW or about $1.32/day or $39.60/mo. Add to that part of my water and sewer bill, the annual service call and musty stink and to me is seems like a waste to even have the darn thing. Subtract the $39 from the $104 and you have $65.00. For that $65 I have to fiddle around with the thermostat and put up with some excessive humidity To save $65 bucks it just doesn't seem worth it.

I know this is probably already too long to post but will try anyway. In closing, the latest thing in home AC units are compressors which run on AC that is converted to DC and then back to AC at a variable frequency. This allows the compressor speed to be varied to the exact speed needed to keep the home cool. No more or very little cycling off and on. These unit start out at about 20 and go up to 25 SEER – now you are getting very close to the energy used by an evaporative cooler and besides that you don't increase your water AND sewer bill.

Tom G. "




bobo wrote on Mar 1, 2010 10:04 AM:

" Do they still have that diagram in Kindergarten or first grade that shows the water cycle? You know how water evaporates over the lakes and oceans, forming clouds that drift over the countryside, raining on the hills and mountains, running down the slopes forming rivers that flow back to the sea. I think that was real! We have the same amount of water today that we had a million years ago. We just didnt have lawyers and politicians a million years ago. "




bobo wrote on Mar 1, 2010 9:59 AM:

" I don't know on what planet your evap cooler uses more power than the most efficient A/C. Just read the nameplate on the unit. An evap cooler with a 1/2 hp motor draws 5 to 7 amps at 120 volt, or about 800 watts. An A/C has two or three motors. A compressor and an evaporator fan and a condensor fan. Each one, especially the condensor is larger than that. The smallest modern A/C unit is going to consume at least 1500 watts. Closer to 2500 watts. Look it up. "




tomgarven wrote on Mar 1, 2010 8:00 AM:

" Here is some education for the general public. Maybe if we get into a crisis situation we should start paying attention to evaporative coolers instead of hiring water cops to go out and check if someone is washing their car.

The Arizona study reads in part:

a study was initiated by the "University of Arizona and the Water Services Department at The City of Phoenix with funding from the Arizona Department of Water Resources. This study monitored evaporative coolers at 46 homes in Phoenix. The preliminary data from this study indicates that water usage of an evaporative cooler in Phoenix was about 7.6 gallons for each hour that the cooler was operated (4.4 gallons per hour for systems without bleed-off and 10.4 gallons per hour
for systems with bleed-off)."

Now let's see 10.4 gallons [w/bleed] for about 12 hours per day is 124.8 gallons a day or 3744 gallons per month. And then you wonder why your water bill goes up in the summer. And we haven't even started talking about the water that evaporates from our swimming pools yet at 110 degrees.

Yup seem like a good time to me to upgrade to that more efficient AC unit. Also shouldn't we be considering changing the building codes to prevent the installation of them in the first place? Prevention is much more efficient that trying to eliminate something after it has been installed.

Just saying
Tom G. "




Arliss wrote on Feb 27, 2010 8:20 AM:

" Tom, you don't have to explain how AC works to me, my father worked in HVAC for 40 years and I would help him out throughout my childhood.

These roof mounted units are designed just for this climate. "




tomgarven wrote on Feb 25, 2010 1:25 PM:

" Arliss wrote [in part] "It is too hot here for a "Ground mounted AC unit",

Dear Arliss:

Most AC units in the U.S. are mounted on the ground. What we have here in the desert southwest are called 'packaged AC/packaged Heat Pump units. On a typical day in Havasu the temperature of your roof can easily reach 140 degrees. In fact most AC units are given their ratings in test labs which are maintained at 85 degrees.

Mounting an AC unit on the ground were the temperature might be 115 degrees is significantly better that mounting it on the roof where it is 140 degrees. The length of the tubing or how much insulation is on that tubing has very little effect on the overall efficiency rating of the AC unit.

AC units work on an entirely different principle that coolers. A gas, commonly refereed to as Freon, is compressed into a liquid outside your home where the heat is removed by the big fan on your AC unit. You may have put your hand near this fan and felt the hot air coming from the unit. Now that the Freon has had its heat removed and has changed into a liquid it is still about the same temperature as the air outside your home or 115 degrees. That hot liquid is transfered inside your home throught the tubing outside. So as of this point the hot gas has been converted to a liquid but is still 115 degrees because that is the temperature outside. Therefor insulation on the pipes running into the house if of no real value. At other times like winter it would be of value.

The next step is what happens when the hot liquid gets inside your home and is sent to a device called an evaporator. Here that hot compressed Freon liquid is allowed to expand in the evaporator. When it expands it instantly cools the coils in your house to about 40-50 degrees. The hot air from inside your home blows across the coils and the liquid absorbs the heat from the air and starts to boil. It boils until it become a gas and this hot gas goes back to your big unit outside to start the cycle all over again.

Wow long explanation. So if you can shade your AC unit you will not use as much electricity. If you can mount your unit on the ground where it is cooler you will also use less electricity. "




Arliss wrote on Feb 25, 2010 7:49 AM:

" It is too hot here for a "Ground mounted AC unit", yes a new AC unit is more efficient than a swamp cooler, but not if you put it on the ground. The long tubing cannot be insulated well enough to prevent cooling loss.
That said.
Why not offer incentives to people who use less than the minimum amount of water that they are paying for? "




tomgarven wrote on Feb 24, 2010 8:10 PM:

" You can always log in to this website and find something to write about. If you haven't been following the water conservation deal you probably should be because:

1. We are in fact running out of fresh clean water. We won't this week or even next year but we are heading in that direction. We are still in a drought condition. I know it might be stupid to say that with so much snow in our AZ mountains but as a trend we still are.

2. Water is going to become more expensive because more must be done to conserve it. New treatment facilities, our piping systems are growing older and yes we are not managing our growth well.

3. As a city we are not using our heads. They make AC units today that are more efficient than running an evaporative cooler. Figure in the cost of water, service twice a year and it is just a no brainer. Buying a swamp cooler today is not a wise long term investment. Instead go buy a 16 SEER ground mounted AC unit and forget the cooler.

4. We still have 5 gallon flush toilets all over our town. Check out your favorite bar or car dealership that is more than 7 years old. Want to take a guess how many of our homes in Havasu still have 5 gallon flush toilets.

Before this post gets too long how about some solutions.

1. Cover your pool with a pool cover.
2. Fix your leaks
3, Make sure your toilets are 1.6 L flush
4. Leave your faucet aerators and flow restrictors in place,
5. Never buy another single handled faucet for your sink, and finally;
6. Complain to every hotel manager who hasn't done the above. I have stayed in many hotels and motels and they are some of the worst offenders yet they constantly complain about their water bills.

So what can our city leaders do besides make more enemies in the community. Try this.

A. Call every homeowner and see if they have low flow toilets. If they do fine - if they don't well maybe we can convince them to take action. Dare I even mention we provide a $50-75 incentive to install one. When I used to live in Vista, CA the city even delivered the darn toilet to your door for FREE. I am having a really hard time believing this water shortage thing. Someone please educate me.

B. Do you have a pool cover? Last year we had incentives to buy them of about $50. Do we still have any money left? I am fairly tuned in to the city and haven't heard if the program is still in affect. Anybody know for sure. Oh did I here you say that it is my responsibility to call the city? You mean the same city that wants me to conserve or they will punish me with an ordinance?

C. Have you changed out your shower head to one of those trick shower message things. If you left the flow restrictor in place you are one of the good guys. If you removed it and are now using 5-7 gallons per minute - not so much.

This is not rocket science ladies and gentlemen. What's missing in my not so humble opinion is proving to us; your citizens; that there is a need. You have not sent us information telling us what you are doing to ENCOURAGE us to conserve. Why is it that every time we try to accomplish something we must write an ordnance so we can go beat people over the heads with it. Geeeez how about a little candy on a string for a chance.

I welcome all comments at the following e-mail address.

tomgarven@hotmail.com "




lifer wrote on Feb 24, 2010 9:41 AM:

" Ah, the cycle continues. They tell us to conserve and we do so, then they say "People are using less water, we need to raise the rates to keep the funding at what it needs to be." Then people use less water, they talk about conserving.... "




C8t wrote on Feb 24, 2010 9:13 AM:

" Did any of the city fathers ever stop to think that uncontrolled growth would eventually come back to bite us? When all of these big residential developments were in the works, did anyone stop to think how much water would be necessary to support, say, 300 new residential units? Or is it only about the almighty dollar?

Well, of course it is.

Someone saw the city council coming a mile away. We have a sewer system that doesn't work well. All you have to do is take your evening constitutional along the chanel and smell how well the sewer works.

Everything suggested in this article focuses on the residents. What about business and industry? What will they be required to do if the anticipated shortfall hits?

And what,exactly, will the council do, other than education, to sustain the city in case of a drought? What, exactly, will the county do? Will anyone actually stop and think before approving massive residential projects that put an ever larger strain on our limited resources?

I do NOT favor no growth. I DO favor smart growth. Everything looks good on paper, but our elected officials have to stop and consider if the end result it is good for Lake Havasu City. None of our elected city or county officials have demonstrated a grow smart ability. It's time to unelect them and put people in office who understand that our future is at stake and instant gratification is old school. "

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