Editor: Forgive me for not mentioning our almost “pet” Jersey milk cow. Our life on the “Farm” including milking her each a.m. before school and milking her each evening after dinner. She provided our family and many friend’s family’s milk, cream, butter and in winter, “snow ice cream.” She did this on green pasture or hay in winter and grains as a treat while she was being milked. There are so many dairy products available at your favorite market you lose track of what the dairy farmer provides to us. What will the Green New Deal replace them with?

Mary Ann Curry

Lake Havasu City

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(21) comments

hvnfun

Lots of article on climate change from those who actually do the research, then there are those articles by those who don't do the research and are only looking for any means to discount the 97% of scientist who truly study climate and the effects man has on it that support we do have a huge affect. If one truly wants to learn, read, understand their background, like Fauci, he truly is an expert, compared to Atlas who you can easily read is not. Why anyone would support trump attacking Fauci is beyond reasonable understanding, but then again trump attacks anyone who isn't willing to support his lies. I think I will trust the medical expert Fauci, remember trump told us he was billant.

deaton

Tom, I’m the first to admit I know very little regarding “Global Warming”, Climate Change” and “Weather”. I do know that much like the current “Pandemic” we supposedly have “Experts” all over the place spouting expert advise and recommending all sorts of things like “wear a mask”/“masks don’t work and are dangerous” and “Hydroxychloroquine” is a wonder drug while others are saying it is worthless and dangerous! As for Climate Change it’s much the same situation there are “experts” who tell us the Arctic Ocean has no ice in it and all the damn glaciers are melting and receding then there are others who say Arctic ice a mile thick and the entire Arctic Ocean is covered with it and all the glaciers are growing! Just who is to be believed?? Now add “Politics” both domestic and international where everyone lies, stretches, distorts reality to suit there desired outcome, who the heck knows who’s lying the most? We just experienced one of the hottest and driest summers on record and it makes one wonder? Is it just an unusual summer or climate change? I do know there are no end to “commercial interests” who have “no problem” telling lies to extract money from taxpayers. I like your posts here in the forum and I’ve never found you to be advocating for an agenda. However, you are somewhat vague in drawing any conclusions. How about this, let’s find a trustworthy Republican and Democrat (a very rare person) send them up to the North Pole and see if there’s any damn ICE? #Re-Elect45! [thumbup][huh][rolleyes] Deaton

tomgarven

I really like your North Pole idea but I only see one problem. Where are we going to find a trustworthy Republican or Democrat, LOL. And of course I am just joking since I am quite sure there are a few around but I just don’t know one well enough to trust them to protect my back in a dark alley. So my recommendation would be to do your own research and don’t depend on others unless they have proven to you they are trustworthy. Anyway I am getting off the topic of ice. Go to the below link and click around until you are satisfied that there is still LOTS of ice around. And remember, if there wasn’t any Santa Monica and Venice CA and 1/2 of New York city would be under water which it is not at least the last time I looked. But according to the science I read, ocean water levels are rising but not significantly YET. Here is the link.

www.google.com/search?safe=active&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS891US891&sxsrf=ALeKk00pFNkbX7S9eEiHTvrKJcFM2I_R9Q:1602999221466&q=recent+pictures+of+north+pole&tbm=isch&chips=q:recent+pictures+of+north+pole,online_chips:satellite&usg=AI4_-kQeqWNcuWloDmOiK1iey6shlv6VSQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi1qa65tb3sAhVYJzQIHZCHDBYQgIoDKAF6BAgDEAo&biw=1396&bih=657#imgrc=nw1V8K6t_7ya7M

So who do we trust and who is an expert? Well here is the definition of an expert. “An expert is somebody who has a broad and deep competence in terms of knowledge, skill and experience through practice and education in a particular field”. END QUOTE

So is Dr. Faci and expert in his field. I would say yes he is. However, he is not an expert when it comes to being a politician. Is our President Donald Trump an accomplished businessman or an expert politician? It might be possible that he is an expert in business but he is certainly not a very good politician. He is like a bull in a china shop as they say and steps on lots of people toes. And I guess we could say about the same for good old Joe Biden. Is he an expert politician? Well he certainly has been in the field for a long time so yes most likely he is. But is he a Dr. Faci type of scientists or a Trump businessman? Nope, I don’t think so. That my friend is something We-The-People are about to define by voting aren't we.

So when you leave an area that qualifies you as an expert in some field you can get in all kinds of trouble and we have had lots of it lately. Just take for example our news media. For generations we educated journalist to find and report NEWS. Today journalists try to MAKE the news and change people opinions and have failed terribly haven’t they? They were never educated to be and expert at MAKING news but rather only investigating and REPORTING the news. But let us never forget that only We-The-People can determine for OURSELVES what to believe so yes I think your statement of “you are somewhat vague in drawing any conclusions.” is true.

I deliberately try to NOT draw conclusions. Oh sure I post lots of potential ideas and recommend certain actions at times but to me drawing a conclusion is about the same as promoting some type of AGENDA. For example, I could say that the Ice Caps are melting [and they are and they do every summer] and then say you need to get prepared for a new influx of people from California who will be displaced from their homes due to flooding. That statement would take me from being someone who believes that “global warming is real” to promoting the idea that I have a college degree in climate science which I do NOT. My degree is in the field of Quality Engineering which is the study of the principles, practices and processes that help individuals and companies achieve their goals whatever those goals might be. Things like statistical analysis, the study of how well business processes are working and the study of human behaviors.

So yes in closing I deliberately try NOT to lead people to some type of conclusion. I also believe that a whole bunch of people today seem to trust our government and yet as it has grown larger and larger over time it has become more and more useless and seemingly corrupt in my opinion. As I write this today our Congress has an approval rating of only 17.3% according to Real Clear Politics. It is amazing to me that ANYONE believes that a government with that type of approval rating should be trusted for ANYTHING. I wouldn’t take a sick dog to a vet with an approval rating of 17% so why in heaven's should I trust a government with that approval rating. In my not so humble opinion, people need to stop depending on government and once again start believing in THEMSELVES.

Have a great day deaton and stay safe. Keep 12 in the clip and one in the chamber when it becomes necessary. And yes, starting fires is a crime and so is looting, And the last time I checked breaking windows and throwing frozen bottles of water at police officers is also a crime. And I will NEVER believe any politician who tries to tell me they are not.

I sure hope you get this because I no longer get notifications from the paper about postings. They are however working on fixing it I guess. Tom G.

deaton

I see Mr. Garvin that you’re still getting your right margins cut off? Makes it hard to read. However, I got your complete response in the “Watch this conversation” email. I see your point in being vague in drawing conclusions and trying to provoke others to research on their own. I have copied the “links” you provided and will check them on a day that doesn’t have “Pro-Football”[smile]! I still want to know if there’s ICE in the Arctic Ocean and if not, are there homeless Polar Bears sleeping in tents, and fouling “The Streets of San Francisco” [ohmy]! Again thanks for thoughtful and though out “comments” here, I read them with interest. #Re-Elect45! [thumbup][beam] Deaton

tomgarven

I often write about our environment and what we can do to "clean up the air we breathe and the water we drink". Those are important actions and they are becoming more and more important as time passes. However, the New Green Deal is NOT what is needed. It is a political HOT POTATO which has already been revised at least once and has never been converted from its introduction as a 14-page nonbinding resolution into some form of law or legal document. It's just an idea or philosophy at this point in time.

But don't get me wrong. There are some parts of it that make sense. For example, the use of more solar, wind and water power systems as an example. All of these renewable energy sources once developed are free from the use of fossil fuels which create carbon in our air and are said to be warming up our planet and polluting our water systems. Carbon level in our air are continuing to climb and we need to take reasonable actions to stop or decrease those levels when we can. And certainly we need more Electric Vehicles and trucking systems which use electricity instead of diesel fuel and this can be done but not in the time frame described in the New Green Deal.

So what would replace that dairy cow? I have no idea but if this Google clip is any clue I don't think we will find out in the very near future, ha ha.

"Most Americans might not consider cows nearly as noble or important as, say, bald eagles - but in Nepal, the humble bovines have officially been granted the same level of esteem in that nation's heart.". END QUOTE

So don't hold your breath when it comes to the New Green Deal. But if given the chance to support some type of activity that helps "clean up the air we breathe and the water we drink" that might be worth supporting if done in a reasonable time frame and at a reasonable cost.

Have a great day today and enjoy an oreo cookie and glass of milk [smile]

CVA-42

Oreo cookies from Trader Joe's are the best. Jo Jo cookies.

BigBob

Those are not "Oreo's," stupid.

CVA-42

Hey Numb Nuts, they are.

samsah

The plural of Oreo cookie is Oreo Cookies, not "Oreo's," stupid.

tomgarven

[beam]

BigBob

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dirt cake recipe with oreos oreos nutrition facts[smile][smile][smile]

CVA-42

Big Bozo. What the hell are you trying to say? Some more of your childish jabber.

deaton

BigBob in a “nutshell”, never miss a chance to take a “cheap shot” at someone and over what? The name of a “cookie”, yup that BigBob is one “class act”! NOT! [thumbdown][huh][ohmy][tongue_smile] Deaton

Davel2

tomgarven I always appreciate your sense of balance and your pro-active nature. Not every part of the Green New Deal is perfect, but unfortunately we live in a political climate today that automatically dictates if one side suggest it, the other side automatically rejects it. Gone are the days of compromise and all sides agreeing to serve the common good. The change from fossil fuels to other forms of energy can't happen overnight, but the lack of action and acceptance of scientific findings is putting everyone at risk. This is why I take such issue with Trump and McConnell who encourage this political discourse. For example, the Paris Agreement simply was an agreement by all countries to actively take action to deal with the climate crisis by keeping global temperatures below a certain level. Trump pulling us out of it sent the wrong message... would you not agree?

tomgarven

Hi Davel2: Good to hear from you and yes we are a divided nation. But here is my short answer to your question of “Trump pulling us out of it sent the wrong message... would you not agree?”. Well my answer would be - maybe. How about that for a weasel word, ha ha. But to me discussing climate change is not a very easy topic to discuss since there are so many contributing factors involved. So let's get started and at least try shall we.

I have serious reservations about the Climate Accord put in place by the Obama administration and I voted for him for one of his terms in office. We first agreed to the climate accord and then sent $500 million U.S. dollars out of our country to help some other less fortunate country. We then agreed future payments would be somewhere in the $3 billion range later on. But to say that Trump is putting us all at risk is a bit of a stretch given our current global conditions. And certainly being $27 trillion dollars in debt is not helpful either. First let's read some links to documents I believe everyone should at least scan if they want to have a meaningful discussion about global warming and climate change agreements. They help put things into a reasonable perspective. In the links below you will find what we contributed, what are five [5] good reasons for our withdrawal from the Climate Accord and finally a study by the Harvard Kennedy School which provides lots of data for discussion. Things are never as simple as just saying I agree or disagree are they, ha ha.

Contribution to climate fund.

www.nytimes.com/2014/11/15/us/politics/obama-climate-change-fund-3-billion-announcement.html

Top 5 Reasons U.S. should Withdraw from Paris Climate Treaty

www.atr.org/top-5-reasons-us-should-withdraw-paris-climate-treaty

The Harvard Project on Climate Agreements by Harvard Kennedy School

www.belfercenter.org/sites/default/files/files/publication/dp89_bohringer-rutherford.pdf Scan or read pages 23. 24. 25 & 26.

For now let's just say that I agree that we need to take responsible and prudent climate actions however that action to me is best accomplished by the U.S. as a sovereign nation.

A quick example before I post this. Instead of We-The-People sending $5 billion dollars to some foreign government where much of it can be skimmed off the top by some dictator how about we send them $500 million dollars worth of solar panels made right here in the U.S. by a local Arizona company called First Solar [FSLR]. And let's make sure that every one of those solar panels has a bright and colorful red, white and blue American Flag on the frame that says, Made in America. We can of course also send along a “good will” team of construction experts to help the people install and learn how to run the system. That to me would be worth $500 million and do a lot more good than giving a climate group $500 million to spend on some favored nation THEY decide is most deserving. We as a sovereign nation can determine who WE want to receive the money [solar panels] which will help that country achieve the goals WE value as a nation. However, that is not what other less sovereign nations want. They want to control the money donated by wealthy countries like the U.S. while THEY determine who gets what. It is all about power and wealth when it comes to international agreements I am afraid.

Have a great day Davel2 and I look forward to further discussions.

CVA-42

Good to hear some facts and thoughts from someone that is not so bias. Thank you Tom.

Davel2

tomgarven... Thank you for the links. I will read the articles as I do enjoy reading. I do agree that we do send to much money abroad that can be allocated more creatively and certainly managed more efficiently. Your idea of sending solar panels made in the USA instead of just throwing blind money at an issue is a good example of allocating money creatively. It's a win-win and that's a concept that's been missing in Washington for awhile. However, one still has to question Trump's motivation regarding the Paris Agreement given Trump's obsession with Obama's legacy. I know it sounds crazy, but I read all his tweets and listen to his rhetoric as difficult as it is. I understand the cost related to it and I agree when that kind of money is involved corruption is likely. Don't misunderstand, I'm not trying to be a political hack here, but I find myself constantly questioning the real motivation behind this administration's positions like no other in my life time. Trump has consistently opposed reputable scientist on this issue of climate change. I also have a problem with him removing environmental regulations and his continued support of fossil fuels while at the same time he shows little or no interest in alternative energy. Seriously, his thing about wind turbines and bird deaths does raise an eyebrow. I think we both agree that climate change is real, but I don't see him as providing the leadership needed to solve this crisis. I realize that we have to wean ourselves off fossil fuels gradually or else it will cause an economic disaster, but to ignore the issue will certainly cause a disaster of a different kind. I'm going to go read the articles and we will talk again. Quite refreshing to have a real exchange of thoughts on here. Thank you Tom and have a great night!

Davel2

CVA-42... You have to read the articles first before you join a grown-up conversation. I also didn't know being unbiased mattered to you. You could have fooled me! Sorry VA, I'm just teasing you. I just couldn't resist! tomgarven does provide an exchange we can all appreciate. See we agree on something!

CVA-42

Dave. Too bad you can't write in such a way that we could all appreciate you. But Tom is in a class you could hope to be a part of. People might actually read more of your posts if you weren't so damn bias.

Davel2

CVA-42... I'm going to be very honest with you. Tom is very diplomatic and quite measured so as not to offend anyone. I can appreciate that and I truly do admire his propensity to seek solutions, but the day he gets off the fence and declares a side, all the good-will he has earned over the years, will be gone in a heartbeat as the regular personalities I see on hear all the time, are capable of turning on a dime. He's certainly intelligent enough to know that and likely sees no advantage to making his point by doing so. My agenda is different and solely political. I believe literally everything is about politics and that leadership starts from the top down. Nothing happens without going through the political process, whether it be dealing with climate change, state labor legislation, or any other issue that we face. While that disappoints me, it's just something we have to work with. For example, if Trump was simply a big mouth, but was a great "Peoples President," I might be able to overlook it, but that is not the case. At the beginning of his campaign in 2016, he said some things that even I liked. Although I decided to vote for Hillary, once in office Trump became the President only to his base and adapted extreme "right-wing" beliefs and policies. My agenda is to call attention to what is wrong with that. Obviously, it isn't something that can be done without offending someone, so I don't trouble myself with worrying about cutting straight to the chase or shaming someone for their lack of empathy and/or objectivity. I don't worry about being sarcastic, but I usually avoid simply calling people names and writing a bunch of false-hoods as I want to be able to back-up whatever I write. I work hard to be more thoughtful as opposed to the constant barrage of insane and insulting comments, letters to the editor, and syndicated articles from the right-wing propaganda machine that this paper so often presents. I don't come on here to preach to the choir and earn a thumbs up, but simply to provide the reader with an alternative view point. Now you may not appreciate my style, but if it's not presented with what I believe is the right amount of teeth, I would be discounted as a "do-gooder snowflake" and likely get even less consideration from those I want to appeal to. Have I seen any movement from the regular commenters who disagree with me? Absolutely not, but than there are likely many who read all of our comments, but simple don't contribute. So VA, thank you for your comment, as it gave me a chance to explain why I come on here for anyone that would actually give a S**t,

deaton

“CVA-42... You have to read the articles first before you join a grown-up conversation.” Well look who climbed back up on his “high horse”, why that’s the Twit isn’t it? Tell us again Twit, who appointed you the “proctor” of this discussion? Who’s the “grown-ups” in this discussion and who decides who possesses that quality of being grown-up? Is that you? Gee, Twit you must be a really important dude! Then again you could be an “uptight” “overstuffed” “pompous” baffoon, I happened to think the latter applies #Re-Elect45! [thumbdown][huh][ohmy] Deaton

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